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Speaking with Laura, Ep. 001 - John Temple on the Temenos Dream App
- John Temple
I'm Laura London and this is the premier episode of Speaking with Laura. Joining us today for episode one is the founder and CEO of Temenos Dream, John E. Temple, Jr. in Livingston, Montana. He earned a degree in history from Columbia University and then spent the next 10 years at Microsoft as a financial analyst and later a product manager. He was an instructor at the University of California, Santa Barbara, was on the board of directors for Polyglot Systems, is the co-founder and former chief operating officer of a place for mom, and is currently an advisor for Cognition, a computer software company specializing in the fields of artificial intelligence, machine learning, and biotechnology. In 2021, he founded Temenos Dream, Inc. A mobile application built to enable millions of people to capture, work with, share, and understand their dreams, with a focus on depth psychology and the work of CG Jung. Hi, John. Hi, Laura. Thanks for having me. Yeah, thank you so much for being my first guest here today. And this is an offshoot, kind of a spinoff of speaking of Jung, because I wanted to do episodes with people who were interested in Jung or connected with Jung and Psychology in some way, but are not Jung and Analysts. And we're here today to talk about something that I am very excited about, which is a dream recording app that you created, you developed, and you launched what earlier this year? Yeah, about a month ago. About a month ago. Okay, so let's start at the beginning. You have an interest in Jung and Psychology, but you are... Tell us why. You have an interest in Jung and Psychology. Yeah, I guess I started learning about Jung in high school a little bit, but with Man in his Symbols, and just really loved it. But then I came back around to it again with the publication of the Red Book. And I got my hands on it in around 2012, and just found it absolutely staggering. Just so interesting, fascinating, and really remarkable in that, I was aware that he had said that this was the basis of everything else that he did. And so that got me really fired up and interested in it. And after reading that and talking to some folks, a good friend of mine had said, hey, you should try and work with Jung and Analyst. And so around 2015, I started doing that, and that has been a really fantastic experience. When you say work with, you mean as an Analyst and Inanalysis? Exactly, as an Analyst and Inanalysis with a Jung and fully trained analyst out of L.A. He worked with Hilda Kiersch, he studied under James Kiersch. He's been around for a good long while. So that's been an amazing experience, and then through that I wound up, my habit is when I get interested in something, I try and read as much as I can. And so I wound up reading just tons and tons of Jung, of the complete works of the things outside, the complete works of the other major accolites, the Marie-Louise von Franz, of Edendjur, Paul of Hollis, of so many of the folks that you've done as well. Well, Lockhart, Johnson, Woodman, and you know, through all of that, and then also working in analysis, it just became more and more fascinated with dreams. Okay. And keeping track of my own dreams. So in the course of, you know, all that time, one of the things that I found was I was always writing my dreams and dream journals, and trying to work with them in that sense. And as a result, I've got about, I don't know, about 70 of these things full of dreams. Do you really? Yeah, which is great, but it's incredibly difficult to find anything. So I know I've had dreams about that person, or that symbol or thing before, but where are they? When are they? So I started to think, this has got to be a technical solution here. You know, some tool that could be more useful and can make it a little bit easier. Plus, you know, one of the things that I found was, you know, when I have a dream, I'll often wake up in the middle of the night, or early in the morning. And the most important thing for me to catch the dream is to immediately begin thinking about it, and immediately catch it, record it somehow. Yeah. I used to use just recording apps on the phone, but then I had to go and transcribe it, and so forth. And that was just difficult. And I'm a little lazy. How do we make that easier? So I thought, all right, why don't we build an app that, you know, you can literally roll over to your phone, say, hey Siri, record a dream. It turns on, turns on the recorder, records whatever it is that the dream was. You say, okay, I'm done. Then it transcribes it for you, and just saves it and logs it. And then you can come back and work with it later, and kind of really kind of go through all the details of it. And just having that, you know, was going to be kind of a big deal. So we decided to go ahead and build that. And in the process, we wound up adding a lot of other capabilities that have really kind of been fun in the whole experience. You make it sound so easy. Well, we decided to build it. So you have experience with building apps. Doesn't sound like an easy thing to do. No. And to be clear, I'm not a software developer. I work with a guy named Nes Croft, who is fantastic, and he's kind of our CTO. And he has experience building apps. I got experience building software and various platforms and things in the past. But not as a hands-on developer, but instead as kind of a, here's what we need. Here's what it has to do. You know, here's how we test it. That kind of thing. And the two of us working on this, we've been working on it for about a year and a half now. And then prior to that, I was working on it as well, trying to structure what would go into the app and how it would work, and what technologies to use, and that sort of thing for about another year before that. So it's been quite a process. So were you keeping track of your dreams before you entered analysis? A little bit. But not anywhere near to the degree, you know, as after having entered in. Yeah. And you realize the importance of, because that's the material we work with, or the dreams. I'll just share with you when I was in analysis. This was before email. I mean, before email was popular. And I remember writing my dream and then faxing it to my analyst. And right? So, but I always thought that there was so much lost between the time I woke up, and then the time I sat and wrote my dream down. That there was just too much got lost. And then my hand can't keep up with my mind. I could speak a lot faster than I could write. And so, I think that this is revolutionary. I don't know if you called it revolutionary, but I'm calling it revolutionary in all of my promos for this episode, because this is brilliant. So you had the idea that it needs to be easier. And we need to be able to catch more information. And this app allows people to do that. So, right now, it's available for which platforms? It's just for the iPhone right now. Okay. We're working on getting it up and running for the iPhone. And then as soon as that's up and really, really solid, then we're going to go and develop it for Android as well. So you say that it's in the beta phase right now? Yeah, we call it beta just because every now and then you'll find a funny bug or something. Okay. And so forth. And until you have thousands of people banging on something all the time, you never know what little things are going to come up. It's even as a beta, actually, it's probably a whole lot more stable than most apps. It's, I was going to say, it seems very stable to me. It doesn't seem like a beta application. So right now, it's available in the Apple App Store. Exactly. And it's free. You can download it for free. And then there are in app purchases, right? Or there will be. Yeah, there will be. Right now, and this is a little bit of the beta. It's free now and it will continue to be free. But we're also building in additional features that we think people will like that if you're really die hard and use and work with your dreams all the time, we think that these extra features might be worth something to you. And so there'll be a premium version. And so you can sign up for that if you want. Or not just use it as a straight, you know, the straight dream log that it is. And so we haven't turned that on yet. We haven't started charging. So right now, everybody gets premium for free. And just as we get those features out and then as we kind of get them all locked in, then eventually we'll be like, okay, in a month, we're going to start charging for the premium stuff. For the premium stuff that's available for free now. Exactly. Right. But honestly, we'll just grandfather everybody in who's on board now. Okay, great. You get premium for free, who cares? Because once you download the app, you create an account. Yes. And now is it necessary to create an account? It isn't. It's one of the things that we wanted to do is make it really, really simple for someone to just be like, okay, I just want to capture my dreams. And I don't want to have anything to do with anybody else. I just want them on my phone. Right. And, you know, and I don't want to identify myself. I don't, you know, nothing like that. No problem. That's great. So that's the basic kind of version. You don't have to create a profile. You don't have to give your email. You don't have to do all those things. If you then decide that you want to share a dream with a friend or comment on somebody else's dream because there is an area where you could do that. You don't have to by any means. But if you want to have any kind of engagement with anyone else, then you actually do have to create a profile with an email. I want to jump in. We're going to show to the listeners. We're going to show you all of this. John's going to demo the product right here on our screen after we give you a little bit of background. Sure. Exactly. Yeah. But the main point being you can come in and have no identifying anything and use, you know, most of the features of the app. If you want to kind of be social on the app, then we need, we do need an email from you because, you know, if somebody starts getting a root and obnoxious, you've got to be able to say, okay, you need to stop now and be able to shut them off, right? But other than that, that's about all that we, you know, ask for. So this is a way, as we said, for you to capture your dream to, now you can either record it by voice, you can speak into your phone or you can type it in if you'd like. Exactly. And one of the things that my developer points out to me because he's a couple decades younger than I am unsurprisingly, he can type faster than he can speak. Wow. And, you know, most of the Gen Z, you know, and a lot of millennials type faster than they can speak on their phone. Being an old guy, I like the voice piece, but you can do either one. Yeah, I like the voice piece too. So it's not just for people who are in analysis who need to share their dreams. And let's talk about that. So as I mentioned before, I would write down my dream in my dream journal or in a notebook on a piece of paper, sometimes on just a scrap of paper because I wasn't that organized with it. And then get it to my analyst so that she could read it too, right? So what did I want to say? That this isn't just for that. This is also, oh no, that's what I want to ask you is how do you then share it with your analyst? Sure. Any of a few ways. Right now, the way that you would share it with an analyst because I'm not sure we have any analyst we might have one or two on the actual system, but I am going really. I like it. But you can go and say, all right, I want to export this dream to a PDF file. And so it takes your dream, exports the dream, exports your symbols, exports your associations with the symbols, exports your context for the dream, and any notes you have and any conversations you've had with anybody else on the system. And it puts in a PDF file and you just download that and you can email that off to anybody you want. Your analyst was a great example and I know people who work with their analysts using that feature. Using that feature. Right. That's so easy that then the dream can just be exported to a file and then that file can just be emailed. So everything done from the phone. Exactly. And then if your analyst has an account on the system, you can say share with this person and they can they instantly get it. There's not even email. There's nothing. And then you can comment back and forth inside the app if you want to. Or if you want to just talk about it obviously on your own, that's different. So this is another way or I should say the way to search your dreams. Because you held up your notebook earlier, right? And you said you had about 70 of those. And if you want to see, you know, I dreamt about a seal last night, but I think I dreamt about a seal a few years ago. And then you'd have to flip through your notebooks, which is you're probably not going to do. Yeah, impossible to find, right? So this way you can search through all of your dreams for keywords. Yeah. And in fact, the system does it for you. So that if I put in a dream and I say I had a dream about a seal shows up when the system goes and says, okay, here are the symbols. And so forth, it always then says, oh, and this symbol has occurred in these seven dreams that you've had in the past. And they're dated, which I love. And you can just look in it and go right into that past dream. And it's right there for you. So it's nice. I mean, the whole thing is because I was frustrated. Yeah. And I want something that does this. And so we've just built something that kind of works and solves some of those problems. You wanted something that did this. You looked, there wasn't anything out there. So you decided to make it yourself. Exactly. It kind of I can believe there wasn't anything really. Yeah. And I thought, well, you know what? Let's go ahead and just do that. Yeah. Yeah. So why don't we now demonstrate? And you're going to share your screen here in StreamYard. This is new to both of us. So I seem to be the one that controls it. Right. So you tell me when to bring up your screen. And go ahead. I think we're ready. Right now. OK. Ah, look at that. It worked. It worked. OK. So this is what the app looks like on an iPhone. I'll let you take it from here. Exactly. So when you start the app out at the beginning, it always starts to, at this part down here, around the, with my dreams. So this is basically your dream log. And so what we're looking at are a bunch of my dreams. OK. I've put in. And you know, you can see that they're listed. They have, I give my dreams titles. The system gives them dates and times. You can kind of look through and see how they've been, whether they've been shared or not. Like, this is one I don't share. That's one I've shared with some friends. That's one I've made public to anybody. And so, but anyway, that's one. Wait a second. Hang on. Hang on. So you said this is when you didn't share. So how can you tell that it's when you did not share? Because you see it's got the, it's got a little padlock icon. OK. OK. And so that, that's just add a glance. I can see that I didn't share that one. OK. OK. So, but, but when you first download the app, you know, the your main thing is, OK, well, how do I get a dream in here? What do I do? So what I'm going to do is that's what the big red button is for. And if I want to record it, I'll press the big red button down here at the bottom. Or I can press the little plus sign next to it and do a type, you know, type in the dream manually. And this is all before creating a profile. This is all without creating a profile. I don't have to create a profile. This is just right after you download the dream or get the app. OK. Yeah. And start with this. So I'm going to go and pretend that, all right, I've just woken up and you can set it so that, you know, you could say, hey, Siri, it recorded a dream and it'll start immediately. OK. For example, so you don't even have to touch the phone. But in this case, I'm going to just press the. You don't even have to touch the phone. OK. Right. I didn't know that. Yeah, it's kind of fun. You do have to at the end of the dream say, OK, now I'm done. OK. But if your phone's sitting on your nightstand, it's, you know, can be kind of handy. OK. So if I say, let's say I want to wake up and I just had a dream, I dreamt that I was on the ocean. I was in an Alaskan fishing boat. A big seal jumped on board. It walked toward me and it bites me on the thigh. Very hard. That's an actual dream I had a while back. OK. And then I pressed stop. I pressed the red button to say stop. And then it immediately flips over and says, OK, here's your dream. And so it is recorded it. So I could replay the dream if I wanted to by pressing the play button. OK. And then it also transcribed it for me. So I don't have to do that. Sometimes it gets transcription wrong. Sure. Yes, you could go in and edit it. And so now I've got my dream. So you can also add things if you want to add some more descriptive words in there. That's all editable. Right. So I can go in and I can just press edit and I can completely rewrite the dream or stand on it or take more notes on it if I want to. And then the first thing I usually do is say, OK, I'm going to name the dream just for my own sake. And I'll just say seal dream. And now it's just kind of logged as a seal dream. And the system has lit up words that it thinks you might choose as a symbol. And so you can go in and say, all right, I'm going to click on ocean. And then it adds it as a symbol. I'm going to click on fishing. I'm going to click on boat. Let me just jump in here. So because we can't see your finger tapping on anything. So the words that are in a color, like a pink, those are the words that you can tap and add as symbols. Exactly. And that just makes it nice and simple. And then I can, I didn't, can you see my mouse? No. Oh, OK. All right. So yeah, so then you can't see exactly where my fingers are going. But I'll click on seal next. And then I'll click on bite. But if there's something that I think that I want to add in here that isn't one of those things, I can just type it in and say, I don't know, let's say Alaska. Well, the skin is up there. And then I can go and just add that. So wait, now these are symbols, not associations. Correct. Exactly. These are things that I think are important symbols in my dream that I want to try and kind of, I want to know what sort of symbolism exists out there for them. I want to record my own associations. OK. Any of that sort of thing. So I've got my symbols. And the next thing I can do is I can either click on the, you know, any of the symbols themselves or click on that little purple tab off to the side that says symbols. And that takes me into the next step, which is I want to record my own personal associations. You know, with oceans, fishing, maybe, you know, I fished with my grandfather as a child. And I can go in and just kind of record that as one of my associations or with seal, I can go in and say they always seem to me like the dogs of the sea. And then I'm just kind of keeping track of my own associations. And maybe I don't have associations for the other symbols. But then I just kind of scroll down there and I say, all right, I've captured my associations. Now, let's go next and see what sort of symbolism the system has for suggestions or ideas about what to think about with regard to, let's say, ocean, for example. Ocean is often a symbol of the unconscious, the collective unconscious in here. And so you can kind of look at this ocean symbolism and understand that. You can also go in and underneath these sort of literary references are quotes from Jung in this case out of alchemical studies where he had something written about oceans or the sea. And thank you for including a source. My pet peeve is Jung quotes without a source. Yeah, mine too, because I always want to know, where was that? I want to meet everything around it before and after it. Yeah, exactly. And so in here we have specific sourcing for probably about 95% of them every now and then one slips by. Sure. But you can kind of go through and see some pretty lengthy quotes about the ocean by Jung and from Jung. So that can be kind of fun. One thing I had mentioned before is you can, the system also goes and says, oh, here, your past associations, see where it says that in there, your past associations, here are all the other dreams that you've had that involve ocean. So under the symbol, it will include a section of on past associations. Exactly. Past dreams that you've had where you've had the same symbol come up. And then you could go in and click on any one of them and go right there and go right into that dream. So that's kind of, they're dated. I love it. Exactly. And then the other thing too is you go down, you can say, okay, here's fishing, all right. And here's what the symbolism, the symbolism that the system has for fishing. I might read through this and think, you know, I don't really think that doesn't apply to me. It's not my thing. So you just sort of press on the symbol, the minus button. It says, you want to remove that? Yeah. That's the way. Not going to use that one. You could also go in and, oops, that's pressed the wrong button. You could also go in and edit the symbolism and say, you know, I think, you know, I like the first part of this. So you can make your own notes to yourself about the symbolism that's in the system and it'll just hold on to that for you. And so anyway, so this kind of gives you a sense of a way to have your symbols to do research on each of them, to take your own notes about it. And it's a way of just working with that particular symbol and working with that particular dream overall. So some other basic things about dream work are, you know, what's the context? What happened yesterday? Now, was there something really important that happened at work or did you have a big fight with your girlfriend or boyfriend or, you know, something or other that might have triggered this kind of a sealed dream? You know, just more hints about how do I, you know, interpret this? How do I peel back the layers on this dream? You create many other kind of notes as well. One of those premium features that we had talked about before is now you can add your own pictures or videos and associate them with this dream. So one of the things I do in that respect is every now and then I'll have a dream that's kind of complicated or I'll see a building or a shape or something or other. And I want, you know, I want to get it in here. So I might sketch it out, take a picture of it and then upload it as, you know, as an image associated with this particular dream. Does that make any sense? Yeah. Okay. Yeah. So, and then down here you can also see export to PDF so you can easily go and say, all right, I'm going to export this dream, you can create images using artificial intelligence based on the dream. Yeah. That's huge here. That's a huge part of this app. I've saw on your Instagram and I'll have links in the description of this video to all of your accounts. You're on Twitter. You're on Instagram. And you have a website, Temnall Stream has its own website and also you have an email for feedback. So I don't, I don't want to forget that we're going to add that to the description after. That's great. So the AI. Yeah. So, you know, there's a lot of new stuff happening with artificial intelligence days and one of the things that it can do is you can ask an artificial intelligence sort of engine to create an image for you, which I think is pretty kind of perfect for dreams. Because something came out of your own unconscious, let's ask this artificial intelligence, okay, have a shot at drawing this, at painting this, at making a photo of this and see what happens. So what is it going to base it on? Right. It bases it on a prompt and so that's the step one part. And you can actually ask the AI to create a prompt for you. Because if, for example, you've got a really long dream, you can ask one AI, hey, summarize my dream for me. You can say generate a prompt and then because security is super important to us, anytime any bit of your dream leaves your phone. For example, goes to the open AI in this case, we warn you. Say, okay, are you sure this is okay? So we go ahead and say, all right, let's go ahead and do that. What is the open AI? Open AI is one of many artificial intelligence engines that are out there. It's probably the biggest, most advanced one right now. And anybody who plays in this field knows open AI. It's kind of the, in a way, it's sort of the Microsoft of AI. And so it just summarized the dream, Alaskan boat with a seal. And then it says, why don't we choose the style, surrealism. And then we scroll down and say, okay, now generate an image. And in this case, we're using a different AI system, one that's kind of through something called Dream Studio. And then we put it in the background, it's something called stable diffusion. And then we say, okay, go ahead and do that. And it comes up with an image. Okay, so I don't see a seal, but we do have the Alaskan fishing boat. And so I'm going to say, let's do that again, let's see what else you got in there. So it's looking for keywords. Yeah, exactly, it's looking for keywords. And then it just kind of invents various things. So this is a seal as an Alaskan fishing boat. So that's with the surrealism. So again, you can also kind of go in and say, for example, you can see in the style of Van Gogh, and then ask it to generate one. And I find that to be kind of fun because Van Gogh has a bit of a dreamy look to it in my, for me. And so there. Now, let's tell the viewers why this is important. Viewers, listeners who have not worked with their dreams with an analyst. Analysts Jung like images, right? So this is what we're doing, and our analysts typically encourage us if we're struggling to understand a dream or if we're really working intensively with a dream, we work with the images. And so I was frequently, I don't know, frequently is the correct word here, encouraged to paint or draw some of the images from my dreams. And I'm not artistic. It was very difficult for me, but it was important. And I did it. And I don't do it anymore. And so now that we have computers and the thing, this ability, like the ability to record the dream with your voice, instead of writing it, this, what, I don't know how I feel about this. What's been your experience with if you were to draw or paint the images from your dream versus having the AI do it for you? What's been your experience? My experience is it's better to do it yourself every single time. It's better to do yourself. OK. Because you want to rely on your own natural imagination more so than something from somewhere else. But the thing that I find is I'm running around all day. I've got 10 minutes. I'm going to work on my dream in this little 10 minute space. And I want to kind of just play with it and see what this thing thinks. See what active imagination, see what artificial intelligence comes up with. And then see if that kind of bumps me into a slightly different way of thinking about my dreams. It's a new way of thinking about it. Which I do think, no, people may say, well, that's the wrong direction. You don't want, you know, you don't want outside influence. But I do think that there is a bit of a gift in the wrong answer sometimes. Yes. I agree. There's this old story. Maybe it's apocryphal that I've heard of it. But when Jung himself went to analyze his own dreams, that rather than go to Marie Louise von Franz or his or Tony Wolf or the people who really closest to him and most trained in dream analysis, he would take really puzzling dreams and he would explain them to his gardener. His gardener had no formal education, certainly had no background in dream analysis. But by virtue of the fact that the gardener came back with an interpretation that wasn't Jung's, you know, he saw things in a way that wasn't the way that Jung saw things. That allowed Jung to kind of see around, see around his own blind spot and often get him bumped into, oh, all right, it's this or it's that. And I think this is useful in that sense. I think it's sort of a weird prompt of like, wow, that's not right. It's more like this. Right. And it's just another way of playing with the dream. And I think that's the most important part, really. Yeah. Just to play with your own unconscious, to engage with your own unconscious, to have, to develop a relationship with your own unconscious. That's I think the most important part about the whole app, about the whole thing, about the whole thing. I love that story because it illustrates to me why we, I don't think we can interpret our own dreams because our dreams are showing us that you talk about this in your product demo, you have a YouTube channel too, and there are two really great videos on there about one is a kind of a product demo and the other one's a quick start guide. And you quote Von Franz saying that tell us what she said. Sure. Marie Louise Von Franz, who is probably the number one accolade of Jung's in who I love, absolutely amazing, she said, dream, I don't know exactly, but she basically said, dreams don't waste a lot of spit telling you what you already know. Yeah. And that's sort of one of the most challenging things about dreams. Like the biggest mistake you can make to a dream is to try and assimilate that, assimilate that dream into a conscious attitude that you already have. Right. Oh, I know what that means. I'm stressed about this and that's why I'm dreaming exactly like that. Yeah. You know, Von Franz would say that's not really it. You're missing your missing point. And so yeah, so I think that that stuff is vital because we all have these, it's the definition of the unconscious, right? It's what you are not consciously aware of and dreams being so focused on sort of compensating your conscious attitude. Yeah. And trying to say, hey, you know, you always think about things in this way, you're completely missing the boat over here. And but that's really hard to see because it's sort of, but that's how that's how you kind of become, I guess, more individuated, more a whole person is to try and understand that those sides of yourself that are undeveloped, that are sort of unnatural, that aren't your go-to things. And I just adore dreams for that. Explore. We're working. Mm-hmm. So let's talk about the sharing that you mentioned. If you do create a profile on the app, you can include as much or as little information about yourself as you'd like. There are a lot of different sections. I don't know if you want to bring that up on your phone if we can share that to show. And then you can friend, yeah, let me know when it's up and I'll add it. Go ahead. Time to add it? Yeah. Uh-huh. All right. Yeah, so one of the things you can do with your friend or with your dream is, you know, I really like sharing my dreams with a few people that I know love talking about dreams and who know me pretty well. And so what I can do is I can go down to the share bit at the bottom and I can go press on that and says, who do you want to share it with? So you can, I can take this dream and I can make it public so that anybody on the system can see it. I can share it with just people that I've sort of identified as friends or friend, like on any social app, in here, other users that I've friend it. I can share it with a specific individual and say, okay, I want to share it with that person or that person and that person. And then have kind of discussions about it from that standpoint. So let me just jump in. I want to back up because where this starts is with you creating a profile, which we haven't really covered. And so you have to do that first. You have to create your profile and then you can connect with other people, right? Exactly. You can send friend requests. Right. You can send friend requests. You can share dreams, you can comment on their dreams, they can comment on your dreams, you can have direct messages back and forth, all that stuff. So for me, I've got my own profile in here and so you can fill out as much or as little as you want. As much or as little, okay? Exactly. The only things that get required are, as I mentioned, an email address and then you've got to choose some sort of name to be recognized by and you can make it anything you want. So you can still participate, sharing dreams and call yourself, you know, Jung junior, if you want. Right. Right. So we're very big on enabling anonymity in the whole system. It's very, very important. So once you have your profile, exactly. You can connect a friend, other people, then you can decide if you want to keep your dreams and each dream, it doesn't have to be all the dreams. Exactly. If you want to keep them private, share them with friends only or make them public. Exactly. And back to kind of where we had talked about at the beginning, you can see this office buildings of a huge company. That's a dream that I don't want to share with anybody. Another one, Jordan Peterson and a pancake, you know, I don't want to share that one or a lazy mechanic. He lane executions, but barefoot in a war zone, I did share with people. In fact, I made that one sort of public. Okay. So then what happens to a dream that is public or shared? Sure. That looks like. That leads down into this bottom left little tab that says shared. And if you go and click on that, then you can see all the dreams that people have shared that you have access to. So this one on the top, black and red prison, that one is shared by someone publicly because it doesn't have a, I know that because it doesn't have a little emblem next to it. Okay. Lost Monet during a war. I know that one happens to be one of mine has shared with friends. But so you can kind of look through dreams. And then you can also tell, okay, on the lost Monet dream, I can tell that four people have taken a look at that dream. I'm saying wrong thing. Oh, my, the number count is not quite right. I can see who looked at my dream. Okay. And then you can also go and see how many comments are on the dream as well. So people can make comments on your dream and they would, what's, what's to comment on what, how they would interpret it? Yeah, exactly. You might go into, let's see if we can think of a good, oh, this one sort of I'm using. Oh, and I put just to put a photo of my dogs in this dream for fun. I had this one dream about, you know, standing in a line in the snow and shaking my booty for some reason. I don't know why. And then people say, okay, well, here's a, here's what I think about. I think I read that dream. Oh, I remember that. Yeah. And then others, you know, also commenting on it, people saying, hey, you should go and stand up now. And, you know, I dare you to go shake your booty, particularly if you're in public. And so I was like, oh, well, I did, but only my dog saw it. So I just can, it's like a little bit of a social thing and just be like, okay, here's, you know, something kind of fun and amusing and light. You know, with more intense dreams and more personal dreams, you know, among close friends, you know, then you kind of have a little bit more in depth comments, but it's just up to you. You know, how you want to talk with your friends. So I think that there's pros and cons to this and anything. I'm to the point now where I, I see it as any way of getting that image out there. And even if somebody makes a silly comment or something that isn't insightful or something that's way off, it still gets you thinking about it. It gets it churned up in your psyche and it gets you to interact with those images. And so I see a lot of value in that. Now, bringing in someone else's psyche, right, that might not be what we're looking for here, but anything that's going to get us working with these images, I'm all for. Yeah, and that's kind of my position too, because there's a lot of, I mean, there's an argument, okay, well, you've got the blind leading the blind because this isn't a bunch of trained, you know, Jungian analysts who are commenting back and forth. And everybody's going to bring their own projections and it's going to be all kind of goofy. But, you know, those things being said, I still, I agree with you in that any degree to which we can encourage people to work with their dreams, play with that space to like, Jung used to say, used to talk about working with the unconscious and dreams. He used to say it's like, it's like trying to develop a relationship with the two million year old man, the sort of old ancient, ancient knowledge, knowing inside that the archetypes come out of and the images and the symbols come from to develop a relationship with that takes a lifetime. But you know, rather than picking up my phone and flitting through Twitter and all the craziness that's out there, I'm going to go and look at my dreams and what I'm going to do. What people think about those and I'm going to look at my friends' dreams. We're going to kind of just talk about that and I think that's worthwhile. I do too. I like that. I do too. Yeah. And you know, going in, these aren't analysts. These are just ways for you to bring what's inside of you, outside of you so you can take a look at it. Exactly. Exactly. And, you know, and I choose, you know, choose the people that you friend on very carefully, be very careful about who you share dreams with. Yes. One thing that I haven't emphasized enough so far, which is absolutely crucial, is the security on. Right. All of your dreams are encrypted. We can't look at them. The, and nobody else can look at them unless you give someone permission to look at those dreams when you share them, then they get unencrypted for that other person. But that's it. Okay. On your phone, this is, when you don't have a profile, like we said, you can just start and don't have a profile. Yeah. And your dreams are on your phone. They're only on your phone. They don't go anywhere else. They don't go to the cloud. Nothing. So, they're as secure as your phone is. One side of that is if you lose your phone, you lose your dreams. Okay. If you create a profile, then we take the dreams and we back them all up in the cloud, fully encrypted. Your cloud? Yes, our cloud. So, our servers fully encrypted. And if you ever lose your phone or change phones or anything like that, you can just log back into your out and it will decrypt them again for you and you'll have them. But we think that's crucially important. Also, most of the kind of free apps out there are based on, hey, the app is free, but we're going to take all of your information and sell it to advertisers, right? We don't do any of that. That's absolutely against our entire philosophy of this whole thing. Okay. It's why we call it Temenos. Temenos sacred space. Yes, I meant to ask you about that. Yeah. And an old Greek thing, you'll talk about it as well. Yeah. And just we want this to be a sacred space to be able to work with dreams. And so, we're not selling anybody's information, we're making sure it's encrypted and super secure. And make sure we've got kind of rules about, all right, if you want to share your dream, here's how. Okay. And we always remind you, okay, this one's going to be shared. Are you sure you want to share it? So that nobody accidentally shares dreams, you know, that they don't want to. So anyway, that's just kind of a little bit about our security. Sounds good. Yeah. Well, we're coming up on about an hour here and I was wondering, is there anything we haven't covered? Let's see, I'm sure that there's, oh, I know there is one thing to cover. And maybe it's, maybe it's minor, but one of the goals of the app is to try and help people work with their dreams and interpret their dreams. There are, you know, at least a dozen, what I call frameworks are ways to kind of look at interpret your dream that we include in the app as well. Mm-hmm. Yeah, I noticed that. So if you want to kind of switch it back on again for a second, I'll take us a little bit through that. So if we have a particular dream, let's say we're in that seal dream again, down here at the bottom right, you can see it says frameworks. Right. What do you give a framework? And these are all ways of analyzing a dream or looking at and working with elements of the dream that have been suggested by Robert Johnson, by Von Prawns, by Jung, by Hall, different kind of ways of understanding it. So one of them new knowledge is an example. So this is basically the Von Prawns prompt to say, okay, take notes in here about what is it that you know now from this dream that you didn't know before. And so it's just a way of prompting you to kind of write down some notes about what you think might be coming from that. Yeah. Attitude. Another one, this is dreams, compensate, a conscious attitude. Yeah. Something from the unconscious. It's just a way to prop you to say, look at this dream and what do you think it's prompting you towards in terms of attitude shift. And so you can kind of take notes here. If you have a nightmare, one common way of understanding nightmares is that your psyche's trying to get something through to you and you're not listening. And so now it's going to start screaming. Is it wants to just shake you until you hear that? So if you have a nightmare, what do you think it is, what might be trying to get through from your psyche that you're not letting through? And all these questions are ridiculously difficult to answer because they're unconscious. They're working with your unconscious. But these are just kind of, you know, you can kind of go through them and say, all right, today I'm going to look at the nightmare prompt for that particular dream. Tomorrow I'm going to look at the, you know, the bring it to life. This is one, I think, that comes out of lock heart, which is dreams want to be in the world. They want to be real in the world. And so what happened in the dream and what way can you bring some element of the dream to life? Yeah, this is great. So just different ways, because there are so many ways of working with dreams and so as of interpreting them, that it's just different prompts all along the line. One of my favorites is if you have one symbol that's really hard to understand and just, but seems really big, there's a kind of walls of Jericho approach. And this is from Robert Johnson and his book Inner Work. And in this it says, you can take the practice, the biblical practice of the walls of Jericho, which was they walked around the city of Jericho for six days, once a day for six days. And then on the seventh day, they blew their horns and the walls came down. So this one says, take the symbol, spend 10 minutes every day for six days to meditate on it, and then take notes on what comes out of that each day. And then on the seventh day, see what happens. And so set reminders for you and it'll prompt you every day. Oh, wow. Let's go and kind of think about that symbol. That's great. Just little nudges, thinking about these dreams and these symbols and that stuff. Anyway, so that's the scoop. That's kind of a great overview. So I really appreciate your having me and letting me talk about all this stuff. I love it. Yeah, that's fun. Yeah, that's fun stuff. Well you've put a lot of time and energy and work and thought into this and it shows. And I'd like to encourage everybody to go to the app store on your iPhone or iPad and type in Temenos dream. And I will provide links as I usually do. I'm not going to do huge extensive show notes for these speaking with Laura episodes. These will only be available on YouTube here as video interviews. There won't be an audio download on the website. So we will put, John, I'll put whatever links you'd like in the description on this video. And if anybody has any questions, where can they contact you or how can they contact you? Let's see. Best would be feedback at Temenostream.com. Okay. T-E-M-E-N-O-S-Dream.com. Okay, and I'll put that email address in the description. This is the way I'm doing this is still new. We're recording it in the morning on Monday, December 12th. I should have said that in the opening. And then I will edit a couple of flubs that I made in the intro. And then I will upload this to my YouTube channel, Jungian Laura, where all the episodes are speaking of Jung are. And John, I want to thank you so much for being my first guest. I've been wanting to do this for years, actually. And I can't think of a better way to launch this. So I really appreciate your time and all that you've shared with us here today. Thank you. It's been a pleasure and an honor and a really great talking with you. Thank you, Laura. Thanks again.